Comics

Interview: Rob Williams and Simon Fraser talk The Cold In The Bones – ‘It’s the end of our Hershey story’

12th October 2022

Currently thrilling us all in the pages of 2000 AD, Hershey: The Cold In The Bones Part 1 sees Rob Williams and Simon Fraser drawing their tale of ex-Chief Judge Barbara Hershey to a close.

Infected with an alien pathogen, she’s already ‘died’ once as far as Mega-City One knows, now her quest to right the wrongs of her past and dispense justice takes her down to Antarctic City.

But what awaits Hershey and Dirty Frank down in the cold? What new horrors will they find and how is Judge Smiley involved? And will Hershey survive what she finds or will her time finally run out…

Tick tock says ex-Chief Judge Barbara Hershey, tick tock…

Rob, Simon, hello, hope you’re all well and safe wherever you are. Simon, glad you managed to get back into the US after your unexpectedly long European vacation!

SIMON FRASER: It was an epic and to a certain extent I’m still dealing with it.

Okay then, we’re in the middle of Hershey: The Cold In The Bones Part 1 right now. First of all, how many episodes are we getting for part 1?

ROB WILLIAMS:  The Cold in The Bones is a two-part story. Eight episodes in each. There’s a big ‘season finale’ moment at the end of Episode Eight in Book One. Hopefully it’ll have readers begging for Part Two. That’s the plan anyway.

SF: It’s a pretty serious cliffhanger.

And why is it a Part 1? I’m thinking that it’s one of those things where there was just too much going on with this series that it just didn’t fit neatly into the 8-parts we’ve seen before with Disease and The Brutal?

RW: It’s the end of our Hershey story and yes, there was a lot of ground to cover. 

Next, can you give us some idea of what we’re going to be seeing in The Cold In The Bones?

RW: Hershey, Dirty Frank (now fully Dirty Frank again), Juninho and Joe The Dog have travelled as far south as you can go to Antarctic City, following the trail of Smiley’s selling of the Enceladus Energy.

This is Hershey’s final quest. She can’t allow herself to give in to the alien pathogen that’s still slowly eating her until she undoes this great wrong – that she took her eyes off the wheel and let Smiley act with impunity. It tarnishes her entire Justice Department career for her.

One last wrong that needs putting right, then she can rest. 

SF: This is Hershey’s Long Walk. It’s Judge Hershey so we know it couldn’t be anything other than a total commitment.

Antarctic City – surely the quietest part of the Dreddworld? Presumably, that’s why Smiley picked it to do whatever naughtiness he was up to here?

RW: Out in the wilderness of the Antarctic there’s research labs and all sorts that are far away from prying eyes of an underfunded Antarctic City Judge force. That’s probably where the Enceladus energy (and whatever else Smiley provided) is being worked on… 

SF: Antarctica is the last part of the world that’s largely unscarred by human activity. Even Antarctic City is a bit of an afterthought. Nobody really wants to be there. It’s the end of the line. It’s an appropriate crucible for this story.

But also interesting in that you’ve been able to use Hershey as a means of exploring the world of Dredd, taking us to some of the lesser known bits – something that’s always been an element of Dreddworld that fans have enjoyed for decades.

RW: She’s been travelling south – in more ways than one. She started out in what would be Colombia in our world, then Brazil, and finally to Antarctic City. She’s got nowhere else to go. 

SF: We’ve seen a lot of the Cursed Earth, the desolation, but not so much the communities and the societies that have managed to survive . It’s important to see that the world continues to function, after a fashion, even on the edge of the abyss. There’s a certain sense of the exceptionalism of the Mega Cities, we’re looking outside that.

You’re talking about The Cold In The Bones as being your final Hershey series – is that right? Are we going to be seeing a very definitive end to the saga of one of MC-1’s greatest Chief Judges here?

RW: You’ll have to read it to see.

[Spoilsport!]

RW: But this is the end of my and Simon Fraser’s Hershey story, at least. And Simon Bowland too. It’s been great that we’ve had the same team throughout these four books.

SF: We’re doing our best to give her a final saga that’s worthy of her. That’s as uncompromising as she is herself.

Yes, all credit to Simon Bowland as well, whose lettering has been sublime all the way through, as is everything he turns his talents towards!

As The Cold In The Bones is that (or at least your) final Hershey series, are we going to see you give Hershey the ending that you’ve been working up to? After all, we know she’s dying from the virus ravaging her body, so will this see an ending to her saga?

SF: … you want us to tell you how it ends? Really?

Writer and artist in perfect ‘don’t tell ’em a thing’ synchrony there!

The tone here is very much downbeat, with Hershey obviously in pain, both physical and mental. Simon’s obviously done a perfect job on showing us the physical aspect of the virus destroying her body, but more than that we have the sense in the story of being inside her head – something you show frequently with the flashbacks.

RW: What interested me in telling this story is “what happens once your rise is over?” Barbara Hershey is a brilliant young Judge, then she works her way up to being a key lieutenant to Dredd on his adventures, and then she works her way up to being Chief Judge. The top job. But Chief Judges don’t last too long.

After that, what then? Ok, The Long Walk, we all know that, but how would you feel not only knowing your life’s best days are behind you, but also having all that service thrown away with so little thanks from anyone. And to have Dredd turn on her the way he did in The Small House, effectively ending her career for her. And then she gets the alien pathogen.

I wanted to make her a three-dimensional human being here beneath the uniform. And three-dimensional people can feel bitter and angry and wronged. And those feelings can take you down a bad path. So, the question in this series, for us, is can she find a purpose of her own, that isn’t duty and orders and the Law. Can she find something positive down at the end of the world where nothing grows?

SF: The big issue for her is that she will not let her Long Walk be some empty symbolic gesture. She understands that symbols are important, more than anyone. Even after her long and very distinguished service to her city, the word of one symbolic figure is enough to undo her. Like Dredd, she has committed body and soul to the system. She always understood that she would give her life to the city, but the questions remain. In fact, she’s dealing with the same issues that we all deal with as we age, fear of death, legacy,  just in a very concentrated and intense way.

It makes the series far more than a simple Hershey on a tour of Smiley’s bases and some fighting along the way – taking us deep into Hershey’s psyche and the pain (physical and mental) that she’s suffering after a lifetime of service.

It’s truly painful to see how she’s thinking of things, the pride in those earliest flashbacks of her Cadet days contrasted with the way you show in her memories of that tragic and now iconic confrontation with Dredd, that moment where he destoyed her reign as Chief Judge. And then we have the continued shame she’s feeling over being the one to facilitate (damn, I hate using that word) the actions of Judge Smiley.

And of course, as a wonderful counterpoint to all this, we have the reintroduction of Dirty Frank and the comedic moments he brings to anything he’s ever in. As one of your creations Rob, he’s obviously a character close to your heart. But although he adds a comedic aspect to cut across things, there’s also the tragedy of the character that you’re dealing with here as well – in his own way, he’s just as broken, just as doomed as Hershey.

RW: When Hershey and Frank started on this journey both were very damaged. Frank should have died in The Small House. Hershey effectively took him on this ride because she needed at least one backup.

But for Frank, who has a tenuous grasp on mental health anyway, it was all too much, being used and possessed by Smiley. Frank murdered Judge Sam. OK, Smiley made him do it, but it was still Frank who pulled the trigger. That’s an awful thing for him to come to terms with. So, he tried to NOT be Dirty Frank, but his journey along this road is trying to remember who he really is. And Hershey, Juninho and Joe The Dog have been big parts of that. When we meet him here he’s almost back to the Dirty Frank we know and love. But there’s frailties there, still. This is a story about two characters trying to find out if they still have a purpose, really.

SF: It’s an interesting double act. She has very little left to keep her alive but her icy determination and the pain. Frank needs order, he needs her focus. He’s all she has left of the system that supported her for her whole life. He’s a chaotic shell, but he’s still a Judge and he still wants to serve, to give his life meaning.

Now, going back to the origins of the strip, whose idea was it to give Hershey this final, seemingly doomed adventure? Did it come from you Rob or was it something the pair of you had been talking about?

RW: God, I forget. Simon and I talked a bit via email on where this series would go. But I think we probably both felt four series’ was enough. 

SF: I like endings. It keeps us from indulgences and maintains a strong through-line.

This is the second time the pair of you have worked together – with the first collaboration being Family in the Judge Dredd Megazine back in 2003. But there’s been nothing since then.

RW: Untrue! He can’t get rid of me. Even though he tries. Simon and I did the Eleventh Doctor in the Doctor Who Comics for two ‘seasons’ for Titan and then did a Kingsman mini-series for Millarworld together – The Red Diamond.

SF: Rob’s one of my favourite writers to work with. We’ve done it a lot. He gives me lots of meaty stuff to do, he always has a convincing emotional core to his work, which I need to do my best work.

Ooops, okay, change that to nothing since then for 2000 AD! 

So, once you’d decided you were going to do it, how did it come together? What was the collaborative process like?

RW: We talked a bit about how we didn’t want it to feel like your standard 2000 AD strip, in terms of tone, approach to dialogue etc, visuals.

We wanted it to have a cinematic approach, hence Simon’s empathic ‘cinematography’ with the colouring. Which is quite beautiful by the way. We talked things like the way movies like Bullitt and The Thomas Crown Affair were edited and presented. Point Blank was an obvious touchstone. Then I’d write the scripts and Simon would draw them. But we had a strong sense of what we were aiming for going in.

We also talked about how Hershey is at the end of her career here – she shouldn’t look like the hot young thing anymore. Dredd can age in real time, why couldn’t she? We felt that was quite refreshing an approach with a female action lead – and this was all about giving her some agency.

Obviously some fans would rather leather-clad hotness. But that isn’t the story we’re going for here. We wanted to ground her in reality. Do her justice. Simon’s done a wonderful job on the book throughout. The page breakdowns, the pacing. But in particular the colours.

Yes, thanks to Simon you can certainly see every tough decision and the ravages of her pain, physical and emotional, etched into her face.

SF: I think we were very much on the same page from day one. If we are to give Hershey’s last adventure meaning, then it has to be hard-won. She’s worked so diligently for so many years, without showing the slightest crack. She’s been the model Cadet, the best street Judge, an exemplary administrator, and finally a great leader. She gave everything and never let us see her sweat. Well, now we see it. Now we’re going to see what’s under the sharp hair and the eyeliner, the toughness required for her to be who she is. Also, I think it’s great fun to have such an angry old lady as a hero. Women characters so rarely get to be angry, or old.

Simon, your artwork here is so simple and stripped-back, a minimalist delight for us all. And a big part of that has to be in the colouring choices you’re making, deliberately picking a limited colour palette for every story. And within each story, there’s a different colour palette for the events happening now and those flashback sequences.

What was your initial thinking behind this? What made you choose to do this the way you have?

SF: Often in the business of comics there are a lot of people in the line and that communication can get pulled in different directions by each contributor. From the beginning this story has been something elemental, we’re stripping back the characters and also the storytelling. It’s just Rob and me.

He’s been very disciplined with the script and I’ve tried to support that by paring back everything non-essential in the artwork. Everything has a purpose, the colour is never just decorative, never pretty, it supports the story. By restraining the palette I can use colour almost like sound effects or music, aggressively, or in a more subdued and insidious way.

For example, near the end I adopt a fairly dismal pink colour, which I despise, it corrupts the scene and when things really kick off, I hypersaturate it and goes into a blazing red. It’s a logical tonal progression for the emotional drama of the scene, for the nature of the characters involved, and then for the climax of the story as a whole. I hate that colour though and I hope that you do too.

Well, that we’ll just have to wait and see – let’s take Simon’s word for it!

But more than that, there’s a simplicity to what you’re doing with your linework here as well, everything seems essential, every line, every artistic choice.

How has your art changed through the years leading to your work here? Obviously a deliberate decision on your part but it would be fascinating to hear how you approach a new project such as Hershey.

SF: The big technical difference with working on this story compared to everything else I’ve done in 2000 AD/The Meg is that I’m now fully digital. This gives me a dizzying level of control over the art. So, to be contrary,  a lot of what I’ve done is deliberately limiting myself. It’s too easy to get lost in the weeds with a new toy and forget the reason you’re doing it.

I want this to look like my art, with a recognisable thru-line all the way back to Shimura, but I’ve got a fine control of the line and colour that I could only dream of back in 1993, while at the same time keeping a certain inky texture to it. Comics artwork is all about storytelling, everything should serve that end.

So what I’m going for ideally is that you forget that you’re reading a comic. You don’t even notice the artwork anymore, it’s got a direct line into your brain. I want you to feel the characters feelings and experience their world directly without noticing the artifice. My artwork in Hershey is the most detailed I’ve ever done, but I never want it to be fussy or overwrought. Clarity is key.

And while we’re talking about art, can you take us through the process you use to put together Hershey? – feel free to go deep and technical with working methods – it’s always fascinating.

SF: I’ll send you some process stuff from an early episode so you can see.

And he did dear reader, he did… we’re showing them to you here small, but scroll down for them in all their full-size glory…

SF: First, thumbnails, usually drawn on the facing page of the script, so I can keep track. It’s pretty vague, but all I need.

After that, I draw the pencil art on whatever piece of random white paper I have. I no longer have to even rule out the page. I just eyeball the proportions roughly then take this photograph of it with my phone.

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SF: Then I drop the photo of the pencils into a Clip Studio Paint template, fiddling with the proportions as I go. For this page, you can see that I pulled back on the Hershey in panel 4 and also the lower action panel to give more space. Sometimes I flip things around or totally redraw bits. The Dog is based on an old dog of mine called Jasmine, who I have a lot of photographs of.

Finally, for colouring I take it over into Affinity Photo. ClipStudio has colouring tools but I prefer the Affinity ones because they are similar to the Photoshop ones that I learned all this on. The problem – and the great thing – about this particular Hershey story is that the environment is very desaturated and cold. So blue tends to dominate, which is fine because when you do have combustion, fire, explosive activity, etc, those colours really pop.

I want the colour to not be decorative and I want to help it augment the linework, adding lighting and subtle tones, instead of fighting with it. Which can happen.

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Simon, while I have you, can you talk a little about the podcast you and your wife, Edie Nugent, have been doing – The Great Dante Readthrough? You’ve covered the series through to 2006’s Courtship of Jena Makarov in season 1 – and readers, you can find that everywhere you get podcasts (Apple, Spotify, Podbay, and others, including from Simon’s website.)

Any plans to continue the series – after all, there’s a lot more to cover from the series!?

SF: Yes, we’ve recorded about 4 episodes and we have an interview with Dave Bishop in the can. We’ve been very busy on other things, but this will start happening again very soon. Maybe by the time this sees print. The format of Edie providing an outsider perspective and me filling in the back story, seems to work fairly well. There will be a certain feeling of axe-grinding from me in the upcoming episodes, which is why I’ve been a bit reticent about releasing them. Finally, I’ve decided to let it be warts and all. Artistic collaborations can be hard and I want to be as honest as I can about that. 

With something as iconic and well-loved as Nikolai Dante, there’s an obvious association with your name and the character. On the one hand, I’m sure there’s a joy in having something so well-loved, but on the other hand, are there any issues with being so associated with something so iconic?

SF: I love the fact that I could contribute fundamentally to something that had such a powerful influence on my life. This was very much what I set out to do at the age of 16 when I decided that comics was going to be my career. Being a part of the fundament of 2000 AD is an enormous thrill and privilege.

However, I’m constantly reminded of the Mel Brooks line from To Be or Not to Be – “I’m internationally famous, in Poland.”  

Looking back over your career, I was rather shocked at my appalling memory (not limited to forgetting you and Rob worked on Doctor Who) – you were the artist on two of my favourites from many, many years ago – Lux & Alby Sign On And Save The Universe with writer Martin Millar and the rebooted Roy of the Rovers Monthly. Both of them were essential reading for me as a youngster.

SF: I’m glad to hear it. Martin Millar & I are developing a project right now in fact. 

Now that is some great news!

Fingers crossed, with the Treasury of British Comics currently reprinting all things Roy of the Rovers, I’m hopeful that we’ll see the monthly ROTR, with such wonderful work from yourself, Rob Davis, Sean Longcroft, Gerraint Ford, Gary Marshall, and David Jukes, with it all being put together by Stuart Green.

SF: I’d love to see it. There was something rather special happening there, but it kinda slipped below the radar. Some of my later work I’ve never seen in print. The ending of the project was a little chaotic, so I never got comp copies or even saw it at the newsagents.

As the earliest works in comics from you, how did these come about? You weren’t, by any chance, involved in ROTR in the earlier days, specifically Glory Glory and the whole Tundra UK chaos were you?

SF: I am good friends with Garry Marshall and he was living in London at the time. So I went and stayed with him as I finished off Lux & Alby then picked up some Roy work from Stuart Green. I missed the whole Tundra/Deadline/Vertigo scene, partly because I went to live in Italy and also because Robbie and I were having so much fun doing Shimura, then Dante. In retrospect, it would have been fun to work on some of that early 90s Brit/US stuff, but I’m very happy that we could give Dante such a solid push, nearly 15 years.

After these couple of early projects, you made the move to 2000 AD, where you definitely hit the ground running with Nikolai Dante and Shimura. I know you’ve worked for other places and other companies, but would you consider 2000 AD as something as an artistic home for you?

SF: Oh yes. There’s nowhere else like it. It’s a unique environment and very conducive to producing the best work. Despite my sometimes chaotic life choices and poor time management, 2000 AD has always been there for me. 

Despite your career being mostly at 2000 AD, you’re US based – what else can you tell us about yourself? Are you still primarily working in comics, or have you, as with so many, been drawn to the dark side of commercial illustration and the relative riches that brings?

SF: I am a comics guy, for better or worse. I’ve tried my hand at most forms of commercial art over the decades, but nothing else really scratches the itch. I do have a few side hustles, but ‘riches’ would be stretching it. I’m happy if I can cover the rent every month.

Finally, let’s talk about what else you have coming out soon (or maybe not so soon). What can we expect to see from you in the next few months or more in comics?

RW: More Dredd from me. I have Buratino Must Die, a new 6-part story drawn by Henry Flint that started in 2000 AD 2303. That’s the first time Henry and I have worked together since End of Days, and The Small House and Titan before that. Everything Henry draws just sings on the page. So that’s a fun one. And there’s a three-part Dredd coming co-written by Arthur Wyatt which follows on from our ongoing Judge Maitland storyline – The Hagger They Fall. Elsewhere in comics I’ve written more for the Mignolaverse/Hellboy, but I’m not sure when we’ll be seeing that.

SF: As I said, I’m developing a book with Martin Millar. We’ve been talking about doing something for as long as I can remember. Going on 30 years now. It’s sci-fi and has Martin’s wry wit and incisive commentary at its heart. It’s rare that I read a script and it just makes sense completely from the first page to the last. I’m excited to get to work on that. It has no publisher right now and we might just do that ourselves. We’re going to do the book and then see where it takes us.

I’ve also been flirting with a couple of writers who aren’t in comics. I need to do something for a US publisher soon to support my US work Visa. Either that or I end up stuck in Bucharest again.

And with that, cycling back to where we started and Simon’s great European adventure of 2021 we said our farewells. For those who haven’t seen it – long story short – don’t go out of the USA if there’s even anything slightly missing from your visa!

Thanks so much to Rob and Simon for talking to us – you can find Hershey: The Cold In The Bones running right now in 2000 AD. Part 1 began in 2301 and runs eight episodes.

For more Hershey, you can pick up the first in Hershey’s quest to make things right in the Disease collection. As for more of Rob and Simon talking about what they’re doing on Hershey, check out the 2000 AD Thrill-Cast and read Simon’s thoughts on creating his Hershey covers with 2000 AD Covers Uncovered – Prog 2176 and Prog 2218.

And now, because we promised you… the full-sized versions of the process images Simon sent along – thumbnail, pencils, inks, colours, and the final printed page with letters from the great Simon Bowland…